Interview Between Jean-Michel Basquiat, Geoff Dunlop & Sandy Nairne

Did you feel there were people around you who were trying to do the same thing?

There weren’t that many painters… there were a few… there were mostly punk rocker musicians and the New Wave filmmakers.

You were involved in music; do you think your work is a bit like music, do you think it works in a similar kind of way? Painting?

No I wouldn’t say so. Music, you have to work with other people, and I don’t work with other people to do my painting. I mean I don’t collaborate with other people…

It’s coming across really well, it’s OK. Do you feel kind of tense about it?

No… I don’t wanna be too wordy… I want people to understand me, I don’t want to mumble too much or anything like that.

Is that because you think you can’t actually talk about paintings, it doesn’t get you anywhere, that words can get in the way?

No, I think it’s more of a lack of practice I think, ’cos I hardly ever do it really.

Do you think your work is something you can actually talk about? Do you think that someone outside can take it to pieces, intellectualise it or write about it? Do you think it can be studied in that way, or should it be taken directly?

No, I think that people can write about my work, and I’ve seen people who have written about my work that I’ve really enjoyed. [Robert Farris] Thompson is my favourite writer on my own work, because of his knowledge of art besides European art you know.

Do you learn anything from what people say about your work? Does that actually give you an insight into what people think?

Well sometimes yes… but I prefer the more offhand statements, more than the ones coming from you know… qualified sources.

So you were 20 and you were starting to paint; was there any kind of training or formal organisation, or were you still finding your own way?

I was working under my own steam.

Were people starting to notice?

Yes… they knew more about my graffiti and stuff like that, and as more of a personality than as a painter, when I was younger.

What do you mean by ‘a personality’? Just through going to nightclubs and stuff like that. Is that part of your work? Does that relate to your work?

No no no, I mean the nocturnal part of it, working when I get home and stuff like that.

Who do you make a painting for? Who do you think of when you make a painting?

[long silence]

Do you make it for you?

… I think I make it for myself, but ultimately I think I make it for the world you know.

Do you have a kind of picture of what that world might be?

Just for any person.

Do you think your paintings work better in some places than in others, because you literally worked on the streets at one time, didn’t you?

Yes.

Do you think it has a different impact, or comes across in a different way in different places like a gallery or in a home… you know in the different ways in which you can see a painting?

I think I like seeing them in museums more than anything else, but I’ve seen them in all those different places, I don’t object to seeing them there you know, it’s just part of it.

When you see them in a museum do you feel that you are a part of a tradition, you are moving along in a line?

Yes, very much so.

Does that give you a good feeling?

Yes, I think art is very important.

Why do you think it’s important? What makes you think it’s a good thing to be doing?

The greatest treasures of the world are art, pretty much… they are the most lasting, they are still here after people and… I don’t know, it’s just a clear picture you know.

Is there something that’s really affected you, from any age? A kind of thing you might see in a museum…

[cuts in]

But anything can act as an influence. If I see a painting from the Middle Ages, I can see the life, I can see how people were… like seeing a sculpture from Africa, I can see the tribe, I can see the life around it.

In a way it’s like a report on a time… on the way people lived, when you see an old painting?

Even with things that aren’t so obvious, like the abstract expressionist painters and so on and so forth, are really… you know it looks like New York in the 50s… they seem to be true historical documents you know, that I can get more from them than reading or other things.

And do you think that you are making historical documents yourself?

Yes.

What do you think that you’re saying about today?

I think there’s a lot of people that are neglected in our… I don’t know if for me it’s the paintings or what… but… black people are never portrayed realistically in… not even portrayed in modern art enough, and I’m glad that I do that. I use the ‘black’ as the protagonist because I am black, and that’s why I use it as the main character in all the paintings.

But do you think that you are using the black character in the same way as Matisse used the white character?

[cuts in]

I’d say so, I’d say so very much for that reason, yes.

Is it a political thing?

[cuts in]

No no no… just for a change you know… I don’t think bad of Matisse at all, his paintings are beautiful… that’s what was around him.

Do you feel that black art has not been seen in western society?

It could be something as simple as the racism of the
gallery owner, or the racism of the museum directors
you know… I mean that.

But you’ve broken through that haven’t you?

I think a little more than a lot of other people… yes.

But do you find that being a black artist puts you into a stereotyped role, that you have to do certain things, there’s this kind of expectation of you? Or do you feel free?

I can’t say that I’m the first recognised black artist, because there’s a lot of people… Jacob Lawrence and a lot of other people… Maybe I’m the first to get across to a lot of people… there’s more media coverage maybe.

You mean you maybe just hit a different time in some way? That there is something special about today that makes it easier for you to… get through?

I don’t know, maybe because of people like Andy [Warhol] I think that the artist can be viewed more as
a ‘hero’, an image.

Do you see yourself as a ‘hero’? The way an actor can be a hero, the way a musician can be a hero. Do you think that’s a good thing for an artist to be?

I think it’s good that people are more respectful to
artists, instead of seeing them as junk oddballs or whatever they saw them as before.

So you’ve hit a lucky time in a way?

I don’t know…

Do you think that if you’d been working 20 years ago, you might have been more obscure, more…

Probably… yes.

Are there any problems from the media attention, the image thing?

Well James Rosenquist told me that art isn’t show business, and I think that’s something that I have to remember.

Why?

[long silence]

I think it’s a bad frame of mind for the artist in a way.

Do you know why?

Because it makes you too regular, and you don’t want to be… I want clarity but I also want to have some sort of obscurity…

Why do you want obscurity?

I want it to be sort of more cryptic, the work in some way you know.

When you make a piece, does it have a clear meaning, does it say one thing?

It’s usually how I feel at the moment.

Can you talk about the kind of feelings that some of your work conveys?

I could tell you about Leon Golub, and what he might think… I guess his work is very political but I don’t have that many political thoughts in my work at all. Most of my thoughts are just pretty personal.

Like what? 

Happiness… you know… just very simple thoughts…

Let’s just go back to this showbiz thing. Do you think that art has become like showbiz now?

Well, I’m not really sure if the stories of the artists in the studio quietly working are really true any more. There’s always photographers coming to the studio, and stuff like that. It’s a life that is documented and put out there, you know, you go to a restaurant and they write about it in The Post on page six.

Do you like that? 

I’m sure in some ways it’s fun, yeah?

In some ways it’s not fun?

I try to be a little reclusive, and not just to be out there and be brought up and brought down, like they do with most of them.

Yes, sometimes they can turn on you.

Yes, they always do. I can’t think of one big celebrity type person they haven’t done that to.

They’ve done that to you?

Here and there.

Tell me how they’ve got at you, and put you in a box.

[long silence]

People expect you not to really change, they want you to be the same as you were when you were 19 you know.

How do you think you’ve changed?

[long silence]

I think my mind affects my work more now than it used to, I used to work more heart to hand… I think that as you get older you can’t help it, the mind just pulls into it. I hope it doesn’t have too much effect on it, but in some ways I think that it’s been good.

When I look at your paintings it looks as though you’ve read a thousand books, and that you’ve seen a thousand TV programmes, just pouring in. Is that what it feels like to you?

I like to have information, rather than just have a brushstroke. Just to have these words to put in these feelings underneath, you know.

Where do the words come from?

They’re mostly from books and stuff like that.

Do you read a lot?

Yes. I look at the words I like, and copy them over and over again, or use diagrams, or…

What do you like about the word? What is it that makes the word work for you?

Words that just jump up off the page when I see them, you know.

It’s almost like they’re shapes…

Exactly, exactly…

What about materials? Do you just use wood, canvas…

I use a lot of canvas, but I’ve become bored with it now, and I just want to use wood for everything, as the base for the paintings.

Why?

I think it looks much better, less academic… I don’t know. I enjoy painting on canvas still, sometimes, but I really prefer wood and working with more odd shapes.

You’ve always worked with different kinds of materials,
haven’t you?

In the beginning I worked on wood because that’s always free, to work on the doors and windows of the Lower East Side. And then I started working on canvas when I got into a gallery. No cut that, I started to work on canvas before that. I like some of the canvases I’ve done, but I really enjoy the wood more.

Is the look of the thing the most important thing, the impact? 

I think that appearance is really a lot.

What’s the difference in your mind between paintings that work, and paintings that don’t?

It’s hard to say you know.

Who are these figures in your paintings?

A lot of them are self-portraits and some of them are just… you know, my friends and stuff.

Sometimes the figures look really angry… is that intentional?

[long silence]

I’m not out to frighten people… just something to do with the rest of my way you know.

Is there any anger in you?

Of course there is, of course there is.

What are you angry about?

[long pause]

I don’t remember.

Do you think it’s different if you’re black and looking at your paintings, do you think they say different things?

I think black people are glad to be represented and recognised in my paintings, and that’s the feeling I get when we talk about it.

Black people in this country get a rough deal, is that part of what your work’s about?

Yeah I have to say so, yeah.